TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Alexi_Alx_Anova
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:00 am

Re: TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Post by Alexi_Alx_Anova » Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:35 pm

I'm considering upgrading my TrackIR1 to a TrackIR2 but am somewhat put off by this USB1.1 vs 2.0 business (I currently have problems with my TrackIR1 recognising the USB port with the 2.11 drivers).

Unfortunately, my mobo (Gigabyte 8INXP) has ONLY USB 2.0 ports.

Is this TrackIR problem a HARDWARE or DRIVER problem? i.e., to fix it, will NP need to produce a TrackIR3 unit or do they only have to redesign their drivers?

If it is the former, I will not buy a TrackIR2, but if it is the latter I will purchase.

Lastly, can you get a converter or hub that will change a USB 2.0 port exclusively into a 1.1 port? If so, could someone post the details?

Thanks in advance,

Alexi

graemeg
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:00 am

Re: TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Post by graemeg » Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:56 am

See this thread. NP thinks this USB problem is only affecting a "small number of users." I beg to differ.

http://forums.naturalpoint.com/cgi-bin/ ... 3;t=000210

AV8R
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat May 10, 2003 5:00 am

Re: TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Post by AV8R » Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:03 pm

quote:Originally posted by Alexi_Alx_Anova:
I'm considering upgrading my TrackIR1 to a TrackIR2 but am somewhat put off by this USB1.1 vs 2.0 business (I currently have problems with my TrackIR1 recognising the USB port with the 2.11 drivers).

Unfortunately, my mobo (Gigabyte 8INXP) has ONLY USB 2.0 ports.

Is this TrackIR problem a HARDWARE or DRIVER problem? i.e., to fix it, will NP need to produce a TrackIR3 unit or do they only have to redesign their drivers?

If it is the former, I will not buy a TrackIR2, but if it is the latter I will purchase.

Lastly, can you get a converter or hub that will change a USB 2.0 port exclusively into a 1.1 port? If so, could someone post the details?

Thanks in advance,

AlexiAlexi,

Im not in position to speak from NP's support perspective. I can only give you what Ive learned from first hand experience and from what Ive read from the others.

The point here is that many (what ever a "few" is that is low enough to ignore) of us are experiencing the same USB device not recognized failure on many types of motherboards and USB subsystems. The problem is likely a complex mix of factors instead of one simple cause, which is why NP is slow to respond. They pushed their design to the edge of the spec by their own admission, and so now we have to deal with it.

We are just the vocal "few" that have spent the time to post here our troubles in hope of a solution and NP support. In time, Im positive that NP will have to rise to the occasion and offer us a solution or free upgrade if they want to have a positive reputation in our closely nit community. What NP needs to do is to satisfy their customers, and not to marginalize this issue as just a few bad customer systems. You can betcha that alot of potential and current customers are watching as to how NP is going to deal with us. The ball is sqaurely in their court. Inaction is going to be percieved as negative.

As for you, I would think that as long as NP stands by their money back policy within a certain time period, you can give TIR2 a try. But its buyer beware (Caveot Emptor) and know that its a crap shoot. Another method would be to borrow a friend's hardware and give it a try, if you are lucky to have someone nearby. If you are patient, then waiting is the safest bet.

Ive tried with and without MS WinXP USB 2.0 update patch, with and without the BIOS enabling USB2.0 and enabling USB1.1 compatibility. None of these did the trick. I dont believe the problem is patching or USB BIOS compatibility settings.

As for USB hubs, I tried a PCI addon USB1.1 hub (with industry standard OPTI USB chipset) and still it did not work. Ultimately, even the hub will have to go to the MB's onboard host controller, so Im not sure how this is an universal solution.

Im starting to educate myself on this topic. Its actually quite interesting. Ive learned that not all HUBs are made alike. Some use one TT and the better ones use MTT (Multiple Transaction Translation) which makes a big difference in speed and USB1.1 vs USB2.0 compatibility. Then theres the issue of the Mother Board's onboard USB handler or "Host Controller". Then theres the issue of how the system BIOS enables 1.1 or 2.0 compatibility. Some good references:

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hwdev/bus ... pport.mspx
http://www.intel.com/technology/usb/ehcispec.htm
http://download.microsoft.com/download/ ... /hci_1.exe

from this system architect drawing, one can begin to see the file structure that goes along with the USB compatibility issue.
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hwdev/bus ... upport.gif

I would recommend you post your system specs and OS configuration so that other may learn from your experience.

AV8R

[ January 07, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: AV8R ]

Wayne
Posts: 891
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:00 am
Location: Oregon

Re: TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Post by Wayne » Thu Jan 08, 2004 10:24 am

We are aware of the issue, and for me to say that we are working on it is not enough.
We have tried to replicate this issue and at present we have been unsuccessful. As you all know it is very difficult for us to fix something that we can’t replicate.
The one thing that we have learned so far is that:
1. The users that have tried their same unit on other computers found that it works perfectly.
2. The issue appears to be only in Windows XP, even though there are thousands of TrackIR’s out there working on Windows XP with no problems.
3. At this stage we would like to see if anyone is prepared to send us their computer? We will arrange both the shipping and the insurance. We can not however confirm that the computer that is sent to us will have the same issue others are having. The ideal computer would be one that has already added a PCI USB add on card and still been unsuccessful.
4. We do listen to our users and we take every effort to fully test everything before it is released.

If you have any questions please feel free to email me at: support@naturalpoint.com

Wayne

AV8R
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat May 10, 2003 5:00 am

Re: TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Post by AV8R » Thu Jan 08, 2004 1:25 pm

Instead of asking the mountain to come to you, why not offer you coming to the mountain?

The burden of proof is on the seller, not the customer to solve a potential hardware or software design. This is core essence of solid customer support. Recounting stats of how many others dont have the problem only pours more salt in an already open customer wound. _Ownership_ of your product and its potential problems in the field has to be something NP program managers need to plan for. Now lets get back to healing...

So heres a potential debug plan:

1. Send out TIR2 to a few trustworthy customers with the TIR1 USB incompatibility symptoms. Win-Win. Customer is happy they got a device which may or may not solve the problem. NP is happy cause either problem is solved or they now have a compliant customer who is willing to work with them. (Cost = wholesale value of some TIR2s)

2. Use collaboration tools to view into the customer system. After you have found a willing customer; then you can use any one of these collaborative tools to view the symptoms and look at the file structure remotely:
ORIDUS
WEBEX
TIMBUKTU-Pro
NETMEETING.
(Cost = free to a few hundred USD)

3. Try to reproduce the symptoms in house with a duplicate system.

Heres the spec of mine that didnt work:
FIC IceCube system: (4 onboard USB2 ports)
http://www.fic.com.tw/product/sff/mini/ice-cube.aspx
FIC Intel Chipset 845G MotherBoard
1 Gbit Coursair DDR RAM
Radeon 9800 Pro (also had GF4 FX5200)
FireLink 82C861 - the Industry Standard USB Controller:
http://www.opti-inc.com/html/usb1394.html
WinXP Home SP1 with all current OS updates

This has to be cheaper than sending a NP rep onsite. (its not likely a customer will send in an expensive piece of hardware for strangers to probe around. Thats too much to ask of a customer - but who knows, maybe you have a local customer?)

As for the BIOS, OS and application duplication; then you can ask more questions to get the same patch levels. If youre lucky, maybe a product like ACRONIS can be offered to make an exact duplicate snapshot of the file structure. (Cost = new system and OS, $1-2K)

Whats in it for NP? Opportunity to solve a potential design problem. Chance to get a sterling support reputation (like Thrustmasters had for example. Ask almost any of their customers). And of course, follow on sales.

Ive just taught you how to fish. No go forth and fish. Dont expect the customer to send you their pole and tackle. Thats called: hook, line and sinker.

AV8R
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them" - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[ January 08, 2004, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: AV8R ]

Charlie251
Posts: 955
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:00 am
Location: Melbourne, Florida

Re: TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Post by Charlie251 » Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:26 pm

Few points:

If your not getting email response, then call them so they cant ignore you. If you dont want to spend the .07 a minute (calling card), then your not THAT concerned.

Is your unit still under original warantee? If so, send it back!

Compared to the amount of users NOT having problems, this is a "select few" problem.

sim69
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:00 am
Location: Brazil

Re: TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Post by sim69 » Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:08 am

Hello everyone
Before i start forgive my english I had to add my little bit to this thread as it was right for me.
I have looked at this thread with quite disbelief and it dose look like like that some trackir users are having problems with some of their sytems. The person with the most to say is AV8TOR i am really soory guys but what an asshole
If you need help with your trackir then this is no way to go about it. you have to help with the problem not be apart of it. it down to one thing if you dont like it send it back. simple.
saying NP dont care is really not true i am sure if they can solve it they will more so if it is there problem. Mine did not work and i have updated my pc with a new mobo and it works great now.
charlie you are positive and constructive and you are right if it wont work then send it back to them dont sit on the forums taking up bandwith being so negative.
Forums work to help people and to get help and to enable people to pass on assitance to others but to be a sorce of information to others.
If anyone came to this thread they would not get a trackir and that is unfare because that is wrong. trackir is good i know that because it works for me and this is sad to see.
So AV8TOR if it does not work send it back simple you may have a faulty unit and you will get a new one.
sorry you guys its a small voice in a big world

AV8R
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat May 10, 2003 5:00 am

Re: TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Post by AV8R » Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:12 am

So... all cheerleading aside, Charlie admitted to having problems with TIR and USB, and Sim69 solved his incompatibility problem by buying a new MB.

The issue is real. There are concerned customers who are experiencing it and prospective customers who want to know if its going to work before they buy it.

To NPs credit, they offer a 30 day trial period, which helps with the crapshoot if it doesnt work and the customer doesnt want to rebuild their computer to work for TIR.

AV8R

[ January 11, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: AV8R ]

jfarthrough
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:00 am
Location: Houston

Re: TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Post by jfarthrough » Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:39 pm

I'm having the same USB problems with TIR2... just got it today and it's not recognized. I have Windows XP and I get that standard message... reported earlier in this thread. I have USB 2.0 Motherboard, Hub, and PCI card connections. non work with TIR2. It sound like my only solution is to send it back in and see if a replacement TIR2 works. I have an ASUS motherboard... Can anyone offer a better solution?
Scott...

graemeg
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:00 am

Re: TIR1 and TIR2: Not USB2 compatible?

Post by graemeg » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:59 am

Solution: Use it as a paperweight.

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