We (Retro and me) are working on a "native" TrackIR implementation for a civilian flightsim and two combatsims, "Battle of Britain" and "Mig Alley". All sims are open source.
I have a few questions to anyone that has an opinion or experience to share:
1. (How) shall we handle padlock while TrackIR is active?
I see several alternatives:
a. No Padlock.
b. Disable TrackIR while padlock is on.
c. The padlock does no longer influence your head movement, but just draws a "target diamond" around the airplane so you can re-identify it.
d. Allow TrackIR to move the screen only so far that the padlocked item is still in view.
2. There is an interactive cockpit which currently works like this:
When moving the mouse near to the border of the screen, the view shifts so that the mouse stays visible. When you are over a switch, lever etc and click, then you activate that switch. I would guess with TrackIR, that TrackIR moves the view and the mouse is independent of the view and you can click switches. I think the view should "take the mouse with it" when it would fall off the edge of the screen.
3. In BoB you can be the gunner of a bomber. I would suggest you move your head with TrackIR and the weapon with the mouse, so you could in theory look right and shoot left . Since you see where the weapon is pointed to and since there is an aiming recticle, this should work well. What are the experiences with games working similar?
4. There is also a 2D map mode in BoB/MA. Would it be a nice feature to scroll it using TrackIR?
Need opinions on features for flightsims
Re: Need opinions on features for flightsims
My opinions
1. (How) shall we handle padlock while TrackIR is active?
c. The padlock does no longer influence your head movement, but just draws a "target diamond" around the airplane so you can re-identify it.
2. ...I think the view should "take the mouse with it" when it would fall off the edge of the screen. Sounds fine.
3. ...sounds like it would a little disorienting. I have found that trackIR is good but in "aiming" type sims like OFP it was a little too coarse to hold a steady enough aim for medium to long range shooting, so keep the mouse as the aimer.
4. There is also a 2D map mode in BoB/MA. Would it be a nice feature to scroll it using TrackIR? I don't think it is that important, not worth the trouble to implement. If it is easy to implement then sure, but probably better things to spend time on.
1. (How) shall we handle padlock while TrackIR is active?
c. The padlock does no longer influence your head movement, but just draws a "target diamond" around the airplane so you can re-identify it.
2. ...I think the view should "take the mouse with it" when it would fall off the edge of the screen. Sounds fine.
3. ...sounds like it would a little disorienting. I have found that trackIR is good but in "aiming" type sims like OFP it was a little too coarse to hold a steady enough aim for medium to long range shooting, so keep the mouse as the aimer.
4. There is also a 2D map mode in BoB/MA. Would it be a nice feature to scroll it using TrackIR? I don't think it is that important, not worth the trouble to implement. If it is easy to implement then sure, but probably better things to spend time on.
Re: Need opinions on features for flightsims
I would like more feedback on this, also feedback from Naturalpoint staff is welcome (after all, you have probably more experience than most ) and from people that have experience with TrackIR, but not BoB or MA.
Some people did not understand my original post, so let me make some things a bit clearer:
About point 2:
Currently, the mouse is used to both shift the view and click on things. For example, you have switched on a switch on the right side of the panel and the view is so small that you do not see the left side of the panel (you are "zoomed in"). To activate a switch on the left side, you move the mouse left and the view swings left and finally you can see the other switch. You go over it with the mouse and click it. It's done in about 1/2 of the time I take describing it .
I would expect that the trackIR is not good for selecting a switch, since it is too hard to EXACTLY hit a spot, correct? So, you would still use the mouse to click, but use TrackIR to shift the view. So, what happens when you move the mouse right and TrackIR left?
Should the mouse pointer become invisible, because it is off the egde of the screen and you do not know where, then it is hard to get it back.
One idea I had would be that when the view moves right and the mouse pointer would be in danger of "falling offf the edge of the screen", then the view takes the mouse pointer with it.
Sorry, english is not my native language.
About point 3:
If you are a gunner, IMHO the problem is not as bad as in two. Normally you see the weapon inclusive the cross hairs. Say you look right with trackIR and move the weapon left with the mouse, the cross hairs and the muzzle of the weapon would be off screen, but you would probably still see the shoulder rest (the wooden but of the gun), showing you which way the gun points, so you would knwo where to look or how to move the gun to get the cross hairs onto the screen again.
Some people did not understand my original post, so let me make some things a bit clearer:
About point 2:
Currently, the mouse is used to both shift the view and click on things. For example, you have switched on a switch on the right side of the panel and the view is so small that you do not see the left side of the panel (you are "zoomed in"). To activate a switch on the left side, you move the mouse left and the view swings left and finally you can see the other switch. You go over it with the mouse and click it. It's done in about 1/2 of the time I take describing it .
I would expect that the trackIR is not good for selecting a switch, since it is too hard to EXACTLY hit a spot, correct? So, you would still use the mouse to click, but use TrackIR to shift the view. So, what happens when you move the mouse right and TrackIR left?
Should the mouse pointer become invisible, because it is off the egde of the screen and you do not know where, then it is hard to get it back.
One idea I had would be that when the view moves right and the mouse pointer would be in danger of "falling offf the edge of the screen", then the view takes the mouse pointer with it.
Sorry, english is not my native language.
About point 3:
If you are a gunner, IMHO the problem is not as bad as in two. Normally you see the weapon inclusive the cross hairs. Say you look right with trackIR and move the weapon left with the mouse, the cross hairs and the muzzle of the weapon would be off screen, but you would probably still see the shoulder rest (the wooden but of the gun), showing you which way the gun points, so you would knwo where to look or how to move the gun to get the cross hairs onto the screen again.
Re: Need opinions on features for flightsims
HarryM, thank you for your feedback.
On the SimHQ BoB board, dnme wrote a post. I copy it here so that people can discuss it:
------------ snip ------------------------
This is great news!
IMO padlock must override mouselook.
Meaning once padlock is on, you shouldn't be able to look around with the mouse anymore.
You wanna look around again? then disable padlock so you can look around freely.
IMO any other solution defeats the purpose of padlock and is not practical when you want to use a combination of padlock and trackIR.
I'm not sure i would like the designating (targeting diamond) part of it. But if it can be chosen as an option then it wouldn't matter to me.
Point #2 i don't quite understand
Point #3. That would be cool, to look around with trackIR and aim with the stick.
That is something i really miss in IL2 for instance. It is the other way around there. As a gunner you look around with the HATSWITCH!! and aim with trackIR. Illogical.
But a design decision i guess.
Scrolling the map. I'm a bit indifferent to that. I would prefer to use my regular mouse (trackball) for scrolling.
------------- snip -----------------------
Two comments from me:
The target diamond is of course optional, like it already is.
With "look around with the mouse" I guess you mean "look around with TrackIR".
On the SimHQ BoB board, dnme wrote a post. I copy it here so that people can discuss it:
------------ snip ------------------------
This is great news!
IMO padlock must override mouselook.
Meaning once padlock is on, you shouldn't be able to look around with the mouse anymore.
You wanna look around again? then disable padlock so you can look around freely.
IMO any other solution defeats the purpose of padlock and is not practical when you want to use a combination of padlock and trackIR.
I'm not sure i would like the designating (targeting diamond) part of it. But if it can be chosen as an option then it wouldn't matter to me.
Point #2 i don't quite understand
Point #3. That would be cool, to look around with trackIR and aim with the stick.
That is something i really miss in IL2 for instance. It is the other way around there. As a gunner you look around with the HATSWITCH!! and aim with trackIR. Illogical.
But a design decision i guess.
Scrolling the map. I'm a bit indifferent to that. I would prefer to use my regular mouse (trackball) for scrolling.
------------- snip -----------------------
Two comments from me:
The target diamond is of course optional, like it already is.
With "look around with the mouse" I guess you mean "look around with TrackIR".
-
Halstead York
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 5:00 am
- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Need opinions on features for flightsims
Ideally, the trackIR should work separately form the mouse, so that you can still use the mouse to point and click if you desire (or have a mouse-hat device like to ones on the HOTAS Cougar and the X36 & X45). In other words, the trackIR is your eyes, and the mouse your hands.
The new trackIR Remote Interface should allow for this.
Whatever my title may be, just consider it one user�s opinion...
The new trackIR Remote Interface should allow for this.
Whatever my title may be, just consider it one user�s opinion...
Re: Need opinions on features for flightsims
Ok my h'pennies worth:
Disable TrackIR head movement when using Padlock. I use padlock for comms mesages (look theres a bandit, now go get them please....) or padlocking a message subject (where's the bally aerodrome). Enabling TrackIR while doing this might be a little confusing.
Keep the mouse seperate please - e.g. If its possible to combine the current interactive mode with the fast headmovement of the non-interactive mode that would be best, e.g. no need to right click for engine management mode, and the TrackIR allows you to look about while the mouse allows for engine controls.
Like the gunner idea....
[ November 24, 2002, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: 'Wee' Mac ]
Disable TrackIR head movement when using Padlock. I use padlock for comms mesages (look theres a bandit, now go get them please....) or padlocking a message subject (where's the bally aerodrome). Enabling TrackIR while doing this might be a little confusing.
Keep the mouse seperate please - e.g. If its possible to combine the current interactive mode with the fast headmovement of the non-interactive mode that would be best, e.g. no need to right click for engine management mode, and the TrackIR allows you to look about while the mouse allows for engine controls.
Like the gunner idea....
[ November 24, 2002, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: 'Wee' Mac ]
Re: Need opinions on features for flightsims
Thanks to all that replied.
I want to take this opportunity to thank the staff of Naturalpoint for their help in TrackIR-ing Battle of Britain and Mig Alley. Your help is appreciated!
It seems the main differences of opinion are about Padlock. When I get around to it, I will have a look how difficult it is to implement several modi and have them optional. I can get the TrackIR coordinates from BoB now, but have not been able yet to satisfyingly (sp?) use them to turn the head.
I want to take this opportunity to thank the staff of Naturalpoint for their help in TrackIR-ing Battle of Britain and Mig Alley. Your help is appreciated!
It seems the main differences of opinion are about Padlock. When I get around to it, I will have a look how difficult it is to implement several modi and have them optional. I can get the TrackIR coordinates from BoB now, but have not been able yet to satisfyingly (sp?) use them to turn the head.
Re: Need opinions on features for flightsims
My opinion is corresponding to Wee Mac �s.
Re: Need opinions on features for flightsims
@ Rainhilf
seeing that you are from B�nde (I'm from NRW myself), can you tell me where you got TrackIR from and at what price?
@Osram,
what civilian sim is it that you are working on if I may ask?
Thanks so far
Prion
seeing that you are from B�nde (I'm from NRW myself), can you tell me where you got TrackIR from and at what price?
@Osram,
what civilian sim is it that you are working on if I may ask?
Thanks so far
Prion
Re: Need opinions on features for flightsims
I'm with 'Wee' Mac also.
but it would be nice to be able to "bug" a target with the diamond independent of padlock.
EX. if a target is "bugged" with the diamond and you hit padlock you padlock the "bugged"
if no target is "bugged" then the padlock work as it always has.
this way if you dont want to use padlock you can still lock up a target (or wingman) with the diamond, look around with Trk IR and look back to your target (or wingman) and easily pick him out of a crowd.
if the Trk IR can be used independent of the mouse that would be great.
when will this be possible?
but it would be nice to be able to "bug" a target with the diamond independent of padlock.
EX. if a target is "bugged" with the diamond and you hit padlock you padlock the "bugged"
if no target is "bugged" then the padlock work as it always has.
this way if you dont want to use padlock you can still lock up a target (or wingman) with the diamond, look around with Trk IR and look back to your target (or wingman) and easily pick him out of a crowd.
if the Trk IR can be used independent of the mouse that would be great.
when will this be possible?