Mouse-Emulation: WHEN will we get it back?!?

[DonULFonso]

Hm, it's been a while since the mouse-emulation mode has been cut out when moving from the 'old' 3.x- to the 'new' 4.x-drivers, and it's been a while since you NP-guys said it would be put back in in a later version. In the meantime we've seen NP-staff say a) it will be put back in, and b) it won't be put back in. So, what's the plan?

When will we get our mouse-emulation mode back - or won't we get it back?

The point is, many of us have bought our TrackIRs when the mouse-mode was an advertized feature. Only this mode allowed us to use our TrackIRs even if a game didn't support the TrackIR-enhanced mode. As long as it supported mouse-look we were fine. Then you cut this mode out.

You cut out a feature we had in mind when we bought your product.

This mouse-emulation mode to many of us was quite important because it meant that we wouldn't sit on a piece of hardware that only worked with some select few games. (Anyone remember the "Vortex FX"? Great idea, great hardware for that time, but almost no games supported it...) Due to the mouse-emulation mode we would not be dependant of games to support the 'native' TrackIR-enhanced mode.

Now we've seen several revisions of this 'new' 4.x-drivers - but no mouse-emulation ! Where is it? When will we get it back - or won't we get it back?

What scares some of us is to see the discussions on the SmartNav-boards - somehow we cannot help the feeling that our 'cheap' TrackIRs shall remain 'castrated' as not to compete with your more expensive products. Please tell us this is not the case!

We want the mouse-emulation mode we once have paid for back! When will we get it back? Will we get it back?

[Hornet]

At THE VERY least, you should reactivate the Mouse emulation for Vector Epansion owners....

That way others had the chance to stay with the old software while those who even BOUGHT YOUR FECKIN ADDON are not RIPPED OFF A FEATURE THEY ORIGINALY PAID FOR because they are FORCED to use the new software to make the addon they ADDIONALLY PAID FOR work.

Morons !

[Hornet]

Btw and your claims about game support, flexibility and stuff is vapor at best !

If you want to stand up for these claims, just register the TIR as gamecontroller and publish its axes to direct X ... now >THAT< would be a smart move to really enhance flexibility and game support !

[DonULFonso]

Ouch, that was... hm, a lil' hard, IMHO.

Personally, I don't feel "ripped off" - *yet*: if I'll get 'my' mouse-emulation back I'll be just as happy as I've once been; but if *not* then this would sure leave a very bad taste!

The possible argument that I can continue to use the 'old' drivers in addition to the 'new' one wouldn't be a true argument, BTW: the 3.x-drivers won't be maintained, only the 4.-drivers will. So it'll be just a matter of time until I won't be able to use the 'old' drivers any longer. (64-bit anyone?)

I *would* feel ripped off if the mouse-emulation shouldn't make it back into the 'new' drivers! I *would* feel ripped off if I had to pay for a feature I for one already *have* paid for!

I simply cannot afford to buy the vector-support - yet. However, *if* I should get the feeling that I *am* being ripped off, then I definitively would *not* buy it, that's sure!

In the past I was really happy with my TrackIR - I'd like to be just as happy again! Not too much asked, huh? Or is it?

[mopheta]

I read some weeks ago in the SmartNav forum something like mouse emulation is an option exclusive for SmartNav users. These words written by one administrator (not a newbie man), and answering a question about the differences between SamartNAV and TrackIR.

We can think only two things:
1) that response in the SmartNAV forum was not true, or...
2)The promises about mouse emulation with TrackIR in this forum are not true.

If you ask me for the future... I think trackir users will not have any mouse emulation in the next drivers. Seem to be the reason to sell a different piece of hardware (called SmartNav). I have no words to describe what I think now.

I bought recently the Trackir 3 pro and vector expansion, thinking that would be possible to do too much things. Now I see that I can�t use vector and mouse at the same time. I�ve downloaded 3.x drivers, but I think this is not the solution.

Mouse emulation enhanced is a need for this hardware.
And I don�t understand very well why people must pay to use vector. Seem to be a sofware expansion (a good expansion). If tomorrow Naturalpoint add the fourth dot... we will need to pay for this?. Vector is a good adition to do better TrackIR, and then this product will be bought better (no need to pay extra $ for people who bought in the past). But this is another post.

[vik]

Yes, i think the people from Naturalpoint love money. And they want more and more of them.

In the next bugfree version there will be only 3dof. And if u want more, then u have to buy a key for 4dof, 5dof or 6dof. And mouse emulation will be there too, but only for 50 $.

[Jim]

Hello:

I really think that you guys are a bit hard on us. Remember, we are a SMALL company, just a few programmers and we are very busy all the time, adding in new features and support for new games to make your TIR worth more!

We said that we would consider adding in Mouse Emulation to the 4.0 drivers, but it was not a promised feature. We understand that it would add more flexiblity to the product, but it would also add a lot more tech support for us, as it has in the past.

More and more games are TIR Enhanced every month, we will be growing the list in a big way this year. TIR Enhanced provides the best way to interface with a game. There are many problems in having a complete DirectX axis support system, don't you think that we wouldn't do this if it would help us sell more units? We try to provide the best experience possible to our customers and with Vector, mouse emulation can no longer keep pace.

I do understand that some of you may have bought a TIR with the express purpose of using Mouse Emulation and now we don't support it on our latest drivers. I understand that this undermines the value of the device for you. In response, we feel like the best solution is to provide a seperate utility that functions as a "mouse emulator" and loads as a TIR Enhanced game. This should stike a nice balance with everyone. We are working on this already and it will be released in the future, but we are not promising it in the next release.

I hope that you can all look at what our company is trying to do for the advancement of a whole new type of controller, an optical head tracker. We need to introduce products, have them adopted and then move to the next generation to continue the advancement. If you look at where we have come from over the years there are huge advances. This may make some of you unhappy, as new units are released and upgrades or add-ons are done, but it advances the technology for everyone. Our model is based around selling hardware and add-ons to finance future development. If you would like us to launch a subscription based service I would be happy to entertain the idea, that way you can pay for the development effort and for the integration of more TIR Enhanced games in a format that better suites your idea of capitalism. How about $10 per month to use your TIR and we own the hardware?

We do listen to our users, that is why we have these forums in the first place. Show me another hardware company that interacts with its customers the way we do and is as timely in integrating new features. We pride ourselves on our customer service and our continued advancement of head tracking. It hurts us to think that our efforts are looked upon poorly or with maligned intent.

[ February 20, 2005, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: NaturalPoint - Jim ]

[DonULFonso]

Well, Jim, we all are perfectly aware of the fact that NP is a small company, and we are perfecty aware of the fact that this means limited resources, too. However, this thread here is not about NEW features we'd like to see - new features that would mean time and thus money for you to spend on research and implementation - this thread is about getting OLD features back!

When the mouse-mode was skipped in favour of a sooner release of the new drivers, NP did not say they'd consider to maybe put it back in later - they said it definitively WOULD be put back in later, once there would be time. IMHO that's been a promise, absolutely - and we all believed NP back then. In the meantime it had been mentioned that NP was NOT planning to put the mouse-mode back in - mentioned in a sidenote, mind. The explanation for this only was given on the SmartNav-board, which we gamers usually rather NOT browse. There it was clearly stated that the aim was to prevent SmartNav-customers from buying the cheaper TrackIRs that were "too powerful" due to having "too many features" that were "similar to those of the SmartNav". IC...

No one doubts your right - and aim - to make money as a company - that's business, absolutely, and that's your job, thus. What angers us is the fact that abviously NP seriously considers to let those who ALREADY have paid for your products to pay AGAIN! That's no problem where the vector-expansion is concerned - that's a NEW feature, remember. But that IS a problem for us - your customers, remember - where taking away OLD features is concerned! We have PAID for a product with an ADVERTIZED SET of FEATURES - we have NOT paid for a product with DECREASING FEATURES!

If this REALLY should be NP's new way of business and of dealing with their customers, then I for one seriously consider to enjoy my TrackIR 3 Pro as long as I can - and then NEVER AGAIN come back and buy something from SUCH a company AGAIN!

Your TrackIR really IS a great product - it's the SUPPORT we're worried about! Forcing your customers to swallow single features being taken away is NO good support, rather opposite!

I cannot help but wonder why NP seems to insist on the ENHANCED-mode being "the ONLY mode that matters" and the MOUSE-mode being of NO real use for the TrackIR-users - it's the USERS that matter, and if we WANT to KEEP this mode then we DO HAVE our reasons for this! Many OLDER games we're still playing feature MOUSE-look but no NATIVE TIR - and they'll never do, most likely - and we COULD use our TIRs nonetheless, THX to the MOUSE-mode! Some sims feature clickable cockpits - and we COULD use our TIRs switched to MOUSE-mode for this, too! Some sims don't allow to look straight forward through the reticule with an active TIR - but we COULD do so nonetheless by simply toggling our TIRs into MOUSE-mode! Some sims use the mouse to move the map when it's displayed - and we COULD pan the map via our TIRs due to the MOUSE-mode! PLEASE, NP, STOP telling us that we wouldn't need the MOUSE-mode - WE know it BETTER!

We do not want any 3rd-party tools that may work or not - we want our TIR's drivers to do what they already DID!

What you have posted, Jim, hopefully was not meant to be taken literally... "Moving on to the next generation" once your "product has been adopted" sounds OK - but NOT if this means that NP completely ABANDON their older stuff completely! NP being based on "selling hardware and add-ons to finance future development" sounds OK - but NOT AT THE COST OF OLD CUSTOMERS, please! We HAVE paid for your THEN NEW and NOW OLD product - and you surely DO want us to come back and buy your THEN NEW products, too, don't you?! IF we're CONTENT with your then new and now old product AND SUPPORT, then we MIGHT come back, that's true - but if we are NOT content but rather PISSED OFF, then we WON'T come back to go through a similar "evolution" again!

Yes, NP do listen and interact with their customers - but a development like this latest one could make it HARD for NP to KEEP old customers!

Just a sidenote FYI: I've been a TM-user since more than a decade now. My 1st flight-gear ever, an F-16 FLCS with TQS plus RCS, bought back in 1994 is still alive and kicking. When they launched their HOTAS Cougar I got one - but I got it for free (for translating the manuals into German), and if I hadn't I'd have bitten my own arse so much there wouldn't be much left by now. I'm still absolutely - probably subjectively - sure that for me the HOTAS Cougar is the best controller around, with an unequalled power and flexibility while not too hard to set up. But I had to wait - and fight - two whole years to get bug-fixed drivers! Right now, with 64-bit OS standing ready to become the next standard, TM - rather: Guillemot - does not provide 64-bit drivers, and they don't plan to do, either. Rather sooner than later I might sit here with a piece of HARDware designed for eternity without any SOFTware to actually USE it! I can't tell you HOW angry I am - but I can assure you that I'm starting to feel similar where NP and my TrackIR is concerned: I feel FOOLED, I feel DISRESPECTED!

I for one will NOT buy your vector-expansion if THIS really should be NP's new way of CUSTOMER CARE!

[Barred]

DonULFonso, I too am a user from the very early days of TIR. I remember back in the beguining that a LOT of people were complaining about how jerky TIR was and how it kept loosing track. When the matter was looked at it was most of the time (about 80%) was down to TIR and mouse mode. This was causing a lot of problems for NP as people were getting Mouse Mode mixed up with how Natural(enhanced mode) worked.

As NP is a small company I can see why Mouse Mode was removed to stop the confusion, because TIR could otherwise be cinsidered about as useful as sone of the VR headsets back in the 70's. So I can see and understand NP's reluctence to add Mouse Mode back again.

I took advantage of the upgrade offer from TIR1 to TIR3, so I do not feel let down or cheated by NP. TIR1 worked in IL2 originally in Mouse Mode but it was upgraded by the Developer to Enhanced mode (it is not up to NP to add the necessary code to a game but the developer) and I was as happy as a sandboy once I got it and my Cougar off the same USB.

When I purchased Richard Burns Rally it did not have support for TIR and I was gutted. A coder made a 3rd person application to tap into RBR's camera and got TIR working and now Enhaced works in RBR. I now run an importe GTR from Germany and run the vector in that game. Even from the Press Demo TIR was enabled by the Developers, and now there is going to be support for the Vector (6DOF) in an upcoming update to the game.

NP have provided the tools and managed to get some developers on board, I would sugest either going to the develpoer or to the moding comunity if the developer will not play ball about adding Enhaced Mode. If the developers do not know that we want TIR implemented then, it will not be done no matter how much NP tell them it is wanted in their game/sim.

I am not trying to argue with you or demean your feelings DonULFonso far from it. I do understand your dissapoint ment of the removal for Mouse Mode from the driver set, NP said it might be reinserted in the 4.XX. Why not put your obviouse passion for TIR to the developers or modders out there, if enough of us do it then we might be heard.

Peace.

[DonULFonso]

Well, in a perfect world all new games would be released with TrackIR-enhanced support - but in the real world, this is only the case for most sims; FPS never feature TIR-support.

In a perfect world the users would RTFM and thus know the difference between enhanced- and mouse-mode - in the real world, not everyone's an expert. But throwing a feature over board because the users are to dumb, ahem... I for one could live with the mouse-mode not being maintained by the customer care but supported via the drivers, prolly as some sort of "emergency"-mode.

In a perfect world... no: in the real world, NP have explained (on the SN-boards) that the main reason to skip mouse-emulation for the TIR was to ensure the people would continue to buy the much more expensive SmartNav stuff. Please let this sink in before repeating what NP said here...

The TrackIR is a fantastic device, no error - but I want my features back! I don't care about what the SmartNav can do or is - I wouldn't buy any anyway! And NP wouldn't wanna sell me one anyway: SmartNav is for the disabled, TrackIR for the gamers.

NP's problem seems to be that the disabled could be tempted to get a TIR instead of a SN, OK. But is that MY problem? MY problem is that I don't have any mouse-emulation any more!