TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

dewey-1
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:37 am

TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

Post by dewey-1 »

My recent purchase of TIR 4 was a total letdown!

I purchased it based on the mouse emulation capability. This is a sorry excuse for mouse emulation.
Had I known you have to run two programs to do it and the fact it is only mouse emulation in certain games not desktop or other programs, I would have not purchased it. If you would allow the TIRmouse to be put in taskbar you would have mouse emulation.
I see a conflict of interest to customers when you need to purchase a separate program to do PC applications mouse emulation.

Get realistic here, your older TIR 3 was capable of true mouse emulation. There is no reason you can not have this option capability in your current TIR 5 software.

You insist that game devolopers are the problem for TIR, that is nonsense. Any game that uses the mouse for viewing movement would work with a true mouse emulation program.

Will the TIR4 camera work with TIR3 software?
Seth Steiling
Posts: 1365
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:29 am
Location: Corvallis, Oregon

Re: TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

Post by Seth Steiling »

Hi Dewey,

I'm sorry that you didn't receive what you were expecting with your new TrackIR. Mouse emulation isn't a core feature, but rather a free utility that we offered to the community to play around with. TrackIR is not intended or designed for desktop control, which is why we don't outline this feature on the website product pages. Our mouse emulation does more or less work as intended, offering mapping capabilities for those few games that have mouse-activated view control.

TrackIR 4 hardware is not supported in version 3.x software.

If you are dissatisfied with your purchase, and desire to return the product, we do extend a 30 day, no questions asked return window.
Marketing Manager
TrackIR | OptiTrack
dewey-1
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:37 am

Re: TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

Post by dewey-1 »

Seth;

Thank you for your reply and offer.
I plan to to keep the TIR4 system for future games.

I am just trying to express that the TIRmouse application could be improved/updated to be included in the TIR5.x software as options.

Please envision a TIR5.x that has optional check boxes for: Mouselook, as you have it now, and a checkbox for Mouse Control.

I know it exists right now but the way software is being controlled prevents Mouse Control.

Proof for yourself and current customers;

1) Start TIR5.x

2) Start TIRmouse

3) Move your head and see the mouse cursor move. This would be the Mouse Control function. If the TIRmouse window could be minimized, you would have the Mouse Control that older games would function with. If the TIRmouse is not minimized you have your current Mouselook games support.

4) It should only require TIR5.x revision. All other 5.x updates have been to put features back in that someone thought were not needed or wanted. Think customer requests/needs and some backward capability for software updates.

This recommendation or request is nothing new. I have read multiple customers making the same suggestion.

There is no reason a TIR4 or TIR5 cannot be used to act as a Mouse Control other than a conflict with one of your other products. They can be used for more than gaming.

Your people are the experts on headtracking so this should be a simple update.

I am 50% happy with the product, it is that Mouse Control function that is required to make it 100% like TIR3 had in it.

I even feel confident sales could improve for TIR if it had this function. Many potential customers are going the route as I mentioned in my previous post.

Please be influential and reconsider/recommend this as possible update for 5.1 software.

Dewey
Seth Steiling
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Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:29 am
Location: Corvallis, Oregon

Re: TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

Post by Seth Steiling »

Thanks for the recommendations, Dewey. Desktop cursor control will not be coming to TrackIR in the future, but we do want to expand the functionality (more from an ease-of-use and GUI standpoint) of the mouse emulation component--along with in-app joystick emulation, key-mapping, etc. These are all on our desired features list, but don't have a time-table for release.
Marketing Manager
TrackIR | OptiTrack
dewey-1
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:37 am

Re: TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

Post by dewey-1 »

Seth;

May I ask why Desktop cursor control will not be coming to TrackIR?

If it is due to it being in conflict SmartNav, that is a totally different system from a game tracking system.

Mouse Control already exists but you are purposely defeating it when you try to minimize the TIRmouse program.
The request for Mouse Control is not that difficult in TIR5.x and TIRmouse.

If it was in TIR3 why was it dropped in TIR4?

My senses tell me it is a marketing ploy rather than a customer support improvement.

Most serious gamer/sim users who buy TIR systems will already have programmable joystick or programmable game controller, so I do not see a need for joystick emulation.

A Mouse Control optional feature will allow any game, I repeat any game to be used with TrackIR. Even the Solitaire game on your PC.

My hope is that even more current/future TrackIR owners will speak up and see my point of view about using it on any game, new or old, TrackIR enhanced or not. Do not blame the game developers for something that you do not want implement for whatever the reason is.

I am seriously trying real hard to support/endorse your products being that I purchased it! All
Seth Steiling
Posts: 1365
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:29 am
Location: Corvallis, Oregon

Re: TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

Post by Seth Steiling »

Dewey wrote:Seth;

May I ask why Desktop cursor control will not be coming to TrackIR?

If it is due to it being in conflict SmartNav, that is a totally different system from a game tracking system.

Mouse Control already exists but you are purposely defeating it when you try to minimize the TIRmouse program.
The request for Mouse Control is not that difficult in TIR5.x and TIRmouse.

If it was in TIR3 why was it dropped in TIR4?

My senses tell me it is a marketing ploy rather than a customer support improvement.
Development of the 3.x and 4.x TrackIR software predates my time here, so unfortunately I cannot speak to the rationale behind the resulting decisions on mouse emulation. Very generally speaking, it's not on our agenda now because we already have that functionality available in our more holistic head tracking line, SmartNav.
Most serious gamer/sim users who buy TIR systems will already have programmable joystick or programmable game controller, so I do not see a need for joystick emulation.
I'm referring to the ability to map TrackIR's data stream to the view control in a game, via the joystick/hat switch functionality programmed into the game engine. This can only happen on our end--not via the joystick configuration tool--and is a feature requested more frequently than the level of mouse emulation you're looking for. All that to say, it's on our radar as well.
A Mouse Control optional feature will allow any game, I repeat any game to be used with TrackIR. Even the Solitaire game on your PC.

My hope is that even more current/future TrackIR owners will speak up and see my point of view about using it on any game, new or old, TrackIR enhanced or not. Do not blame the game developers for something that you do not want implement for whatever the reason is.

I am seriously trying real hard to support/endorse your products being that I purchased it! All
TrackIR is intended to control the view in a game--not the aim, cursor, movement, etc. If you want that level of comprehensive control/mapping, via head tracking, we would recommend the EG model of the SmartNav line. Speaking specifically about the intended functionality of TrackIR in the gaming world--view control--mouse emulation will not provide support for every/any game. It only offers a pathway for those games that already have a view control mechanism, tied to the mouse. In those cases (like BF2, in a cockpit, using "freelook"), the mouse emulation tool can give users a sort of back-door entry to TrackIR support. For most other games, the mouse is limited to aim/control/etc., in which case TrackIR's mouse emulation functionality would have no outlet (at least with respect to its intended purpose). Again, in those cases, we do have the SmartNav product line available for those that want a very comprehensive set of applications for head tracking--mouse control included.

Hope that helps clear things up a bit more, from our standpoint.
Marketing Manager
TrackIR | OptiTrack
dewey-1
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:37 am

Re: TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

Post by dewey-1 »

Seth;
Thank you for honesty in answering my concerns.

So in a nutshell; you are saying that TIR5.x software will never have a Mouse Control option activated even though it already exists, because you want customers to pay $300 for another product line.

This is not Customer Support but rather a form of Marketing highway robbery. Typical scenario;

"If we disable that function in TIR software, we can offer customers this more expensive alternate product to purchase".

After 45 years as an Electronic Tecnician/Engineer in product design and development I have seen this scenario unfold many times.
My anecdote to some Marketing people has been and will always be:

"If you can not dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bull $hit!"

Why would I buy an extra $300 system to such a simple task as move the mouse. You already have it in TIR systems if you would enable it.

With such attitudes toward Product Improvement suggestions I can assure you that this is my first and last purchase of a Natural Point product.

Being handicapped is the only reason I purchased this TIR4 Pro system in the first place.[/b].
AV8R
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat May 10, 2003 5:00 am

Re: TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

Post by AV8R »

Didnt Naturalpoint get its start by making its software as an aide to the handicapped, hence the hands free windows mouse in the windows environment. Correct me if Im wrong.
Seth Steiling
Posts: 1365
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:29 am
Location: Corvallis, Oregon

Re: TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

Post by Seth Steiling »

Dewey wrote:Why would I buy an extra $300 system to such a simple task as move the mouse. You already have it in TIR systems if you would enable it.
The extra cost is associated with far more than just the feature of cursor control. The SmartNav product has different (more expensive) components under the hood, specifically to address the need for greater precision that many of our quadriplegic customers require. In particular, the imaging and processing capabilities that SmartNav offers are quite different. Additionally, it includes a more comprehensive software component, which adds development and support cost. The support overhead alone for the SmartNav cases is quite higher, on average, than for TrackIR. All of these pieces go into our COGS, which we factor into pricing. (Incidentally, if you compare SmartNav's pricing to industry competition, ours is typically about half of other systems. So, in that market, we're actually the "low cost" guys.)
Being handicapped is the only reason I purchased this TIR4 Pro system in the first place.
As I've already outlined, TrackIR is not designed or equipped to be used for assistive technology applications. Our intentions are to outfit the TIR product with a good balance of performance and price, strictly for the gaming market and view control applications. SmartNav was designed as a more precise tracking system, and it's equipped with many AT-specific features that TrackIR does not have. For this reason, it is also priced higher.
Marketing Manager
TrackIR | OptiTrack
Seth Steiling
Posts: 1365
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:29 am
Location: Corvallis, Oregon

Re: TIR 4 Pro disapointment!

Post by Seth Steiling »

[quote=AV8R]
Didnt Naturalpoint get its start by making its software as an aide to the handicapped, hence the hands free windows mouse in the windows environment. Correct me if Im wrong.[/quote]
You're correct. We started in the Assistive Technology market, and we're still active there with our SmartNav products. The gaming product line, TrackIR, grew out of our AT line about 10-ish years ago.
Marketing Manager
TrackIR | OptiTrack
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