Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

The_Nomad
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:55 am

Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

Post by The_Nomad »

So, rather than talking practical right-now stuff, I thought I'd ask a blue-sky question and see if anyone from Naturalpoint or elsewhere had the answer to it -

Would it ever be possible to get a 30' square or more capture space using Arena?

I'm not purely talking with current setup. I'm just wondering what the limitations are preventing that, after listening to some of the FMX talks on Robert Zemeckis' mocap stage setup. Could we do it with 50 cameras? 100? 200? Or are there more fundemental limitations? Is it just that the resolution on the cameras is too low, or the light's too dim, or the markers are too small?

I ask because on Death Knight Love Story the biggest problem we've had, time and time again, has been the capture volume (which we've got up to about 13' square now), and looking forward to future projects, I'm wondering how we could eventually solve that.

Any suggestions or thoughts much appreciated, even if they're vague!
bsteagal
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Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Re: Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

Post by bsteagal »

Nomad

I believe the issue is a more fundamental one than just amount of cameras (I'm not a NP engineer,but I've been a distributor of the equipment for quite some time.. so if I'm wrong NP.. please pipe up!)

First is camera resolution, R1 and R2 cameras simply do not have the resolution to see that small marker at more than about 20 feet, (and that is the maximum, really) You can trick it somewhat by using larger markers or by using active IR LED markers, (so that you don't use the ir rings on the cameras) but even then, it is not much of an improvement. (just a few feet really)

Now the newer s250 cameras might give you about 15-20 feet, since the resolution is much better, but even then, there is a limitation. The new calibration algorithms also improve this somewhat, by giving you the ability to do non-square volumes and odd configurations. I don't think a lot of testing has been done with the 250's to see how much of a capture volume can be reached though.

Other mocap systems utilize multi-megapixel resolution cameras, (Vicon, except for their bonita camera, which is 640x480, have cameras from 1 to 16mp in resolution... the new s250 is not quite a megapixel) which allow them to have large capture volumes, or use active led markers that actually transmit a signal telling the system which marker they are..(plus having MP resolution cameras...such as Phasespace)

Really though, the limiting factor is cost. You could get 30x30, but then, would you be willing to pay for that? hmmm

It has been funny to watch other manufacturers scramble to catch up with what NP has done.. even those that don't produce optical systems have done this... just a thought

Sorry for the ramble! as you can see, I'm a diehard.. *snicker*

cheers

Bryan
Bryan Steagall
Owner
Kidz Korner Studio
OptiTrack Distributor
Mexico, Central and South America
505-615-2410
bryan@kkstudio.us
www.kkstudio.us
The_Nomad
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:55 am

Re: Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

Post by The_Nomad »

Thanks for the very detailed and interesting response!

So you can extend the capture space a few feet by using active IR markers? Interesting... Might have to try that for the current project.

The thing here is that I AM willing to pay for a larger capture volume - or rather, it's becoming obvious that for future projects we're going to have to consider paying for that, even if that means buying inertial suits - but obviously, I want to pay as little as possible, and I like the Optitrack stuff.

I guessed that the resolution was probably the major limiting factor. Glad to see my instincts were right there.

So - I'm very curious to find out if NaturalPoint is working on the volume limits, and if so what ideas you guys have?
bsteagal
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Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Re: Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

Post by bsteagal »

Nomad

Not as easy as it sounds.. there has been one guy around here that developed one, you might want to search the board...I don't remember how successful he was.


I'd be careful with inertial systems, their biggest problem is that they cannot find themselves in a capture volume, so they have to rely on other means to do this. Animazoo for example, on their igs suits, use a sonar based system to establish where they are in the capture volume. Cost? hmmm, over 160k for 2 suits with their sonar solution. (each suit is about 70k) they do have an inexpensive 9k mechanical suit, but they don't have this option for it yet that I am aware of. (and there are certain things you DONT want to do with these mechanical suits, like roll around, fall, etc... so they limit you on what you can do)

Inertial sensors are smaller, but depending on what you want to do, this is something to consider... It is cheap to replace a marker, while more expensive to replace a broken sensor.... just a thought

Honestly, your best bet is to stay with optical systems.. and expect to pay at least 80-90k for a base to mid level system (depends on how many people you want to capture.) Some, like the phasespace, also allow for finger captures... but you defenitely pay for that capability...

You might get close with the s250's, using the new calibration algorithm and larger markers....and plenty of cameras... they already have their s250 packages out and I can give you pricing for more than 24 cameras if you want...

Vince, Doug, any suggestions on getting larger volumes with the s250's?
Bryan Steagall
Owner
Kidz Korner Studio
OptiTrack Distributor
Mexico, Central and South America
505-615-2410
bryan@kkstudio.us
www.kkstudio.us
The_Nomad
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:55 am

Re: Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

Post by The_Nomad »

I've done a fair bit of testing with the intertial systems - frankly, the foot-tracking is pretty good even without sonar, and XY cleanup is not a hugely time-consuming process. (Nearly bought a couple of the IGS systems a few years ago). Impact causing the sensors to go haywire are an issue for what I'm doing, though, but it's counteracted by the fact that inertial stuff can capture close-in action like grappling.

Anyway, a bit off-topic there.

Not as easy as it sounds - I take it you're referring to active markers there?

I'd be VERY interested to hear about larger capture spaces with the s250s (for "writing it into my next project's budget" values of "very interested").
bsteagal
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:00 am
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Re: Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

Post by bsteagal »

Nomad

yes, I was referring to the active markers.. you have to build the leds, power them, turn off the ir on the cameras. The building and powering is the hard part...

I'm interested in the 250's and what size of capture volume you can achieve with them too.. alas, I don't have the budget to buy them quite yet...

cheers
Bryan Steagall
Owner
Kidz Korner Studio
OptiTrack Distributor
Mexico, Central and South America
505-615-2410
bryan@kkstudio.us
www.kkstudio.us
The_Nomad
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:55 am

Re: Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

Post by The_Nomad »

Not going to get annoying about this, but I figured this topic was worth one "bump" / "blue response pls!".

So - if anyone from Naturalpoint had any comments or suggestions on what we've been discussing here, I think both Bryan and I would be really interested to hear!

(Hope you don't mind me saying that, Bryan!)
bsteagal
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:00 am
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Re: Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

Post by bsteagal »

Of course not! fire away
Bryan Steagall
Owner
Kidz Korner Studio
OptiTrack Distributor
Mexico, Central and South America
505-615-2410
bryan@kkstudio.us
www.kkstudio.us
VincentG
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Re: Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

Post by VincentG »

With the newer cameras, the capture area can be increased.

This is going to depend on number of cameras, lenses being used, marker object size.

With a really large area, if possible, you are looking at atleast 24 -> 48 cameras, 1" markers.
bsteagal
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:00 am
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Re: Blue-sky question - ever possible to get 30' capture?

Post by bsteagal »

Hey Vince! thanks for chiming in...

So.. how big can you get the capture area? Best case scenario, with 1" markers and let's say, 48 cameras?
Bryan Steagall
Owner
Kidz Korner Studio
OptiTrack Distributor
Mexico, Central and South America
505-615-2410
bryan@kkstudio.us
www.kkstudio.us
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