Frame Rates Dropping in game

edbert
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:00 am

Re: Frame Rates Dropping in game

Post by edbert » Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:16 am

How much CPU should the TIR software use when minimized to the tray?

Mine seems to be fluctuating between 2-4% (occaisonally 1 and 5%). This is not much in general but for gaming it sort of is. I get a drop in frame rate in Aces High from 60-70 down to 40-50, but in IL2 it is cut in half and makes the game quite choppy. I have a lowly XP2100+ CPU so I need all I can get. I've got the go ahead to order an A8v with an FX53-939 as soon as I can find one for less than a thousand dollars, but until then and for the sake of anyone with an older PC...

Is it normal to see 2-4% CPU when the software is in the tray?

[ August 12, 2004, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: edbert ]

VFS-22_SPaRX
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:00 am

Re: Frame Rates Dropping in game

Post by VFS-22_SPaRX » Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:02 am

NealG and Wayne,

I think i might be onto something here. But i need someone else to test to see if this is working.

Il2 is a java based game. So i looked at the java file that are installed with IL2 FB and Aces. They are all an older version of the java engine. It has been updated since a few times. Maybe with the advancements that the IL2 team has made in the graphics of the game, the java engine might need updated. I remembered that an IL2 squad put out a file that will update the java engine to the latest most stable version. So i downloaded it and installed it. What i have noticed is that i am getting less stutters and my framerates seem to be a little more stable. I havent got to do any extensive testing yet to see if this cured the Trackir problem (been working too much), so i thought maybe you all could give this a shot as well. It definatly will not hurt to try it as it is just updating the java engine. I would suggest that you do make a backup of your IL2 dir just in case though, you just never know what gremlins are floating around anymore. Here is the link to the file:

http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque ... il&ID=1196

All you need to do is extract this to your IL2 main dir and let it overwrite all the files. The two files NPJava131_08.dll and plugincpl131_08.cpl seem to be the main files for the engine. If you go into the /bin dir of your IL2 install you will see this two files after you install the java update files. To be sure that the older versions would not get used, i renamed NPJava131.dll to NPJava131.dll.bak and plugincpl131.cpl to plugincpl131.cpl.bak. I left NPJava131_08.dll and plugincpl131_08.cpl with their orginal file names.

Hopefully you all can give this a shot. I figured since NealG can reproduce the problem easily, he would be the best one to test and help verify if this fixes the problem.

S~

SPaRX

aka James K.

[ August 12, 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: VFS-22_SPaRX ]

nealg
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:00 am
Location: Caifornia

Re: Frame Rates Dropping in game

Post by nealg » Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:38 am

SparX; I confess I have been aware of this java update for a long time, but have never tried it. I know Oleg uses the Java to generate messages and the like....never considered it as having any effect on the 3D at all.

Might be worth a shot, though - there are many conflicting opinions of just how much effect Java has on the running of the sim. I suppose I always presumed that if it needed updating, Maddox would include the updates in one of the patches.

I'll give it a try....thanks for the suggestion.

Edit: Ok, I put that java update in and ran that QMB I described above 3 times....the only thing I did not do was rename the 2 files you did, Sparx...I left them as they were. Ok...I can no longer reproduce the TIR-related frame drop at 100%...that's the good news.

Bad news is, it still can happen....I got it to do it once in the 3 tries...but I left the Autopilot on in my 47, and when flying low over the target, I looked back to watch the bombs explode. Again, huge frame drops when viewing the explosions....and, had the TIR-related 10 fps difference afterward. However....it didn't seem to last! IOW...it seemed to straighten itself out as I flew towards home field.

Not a extensive test...properly, I'd need to fly this mission 10 to 20 times now to tell...but, this seems to have changed the behavior somewhat, and I am a bit encouraged. Also this time, between the 2nd and 3rd tries, I flew a Leningrad Hurri campaign mission ( since AEP, I have severe system/game menu slowdowns when loading the Finland map including Leningrad...slow mission loading, slow 'Applies', slow menu buttons totally. It lasts even after returning to the Main Menu screen, and slow 'Quit' when returning to desktop - I find that disturbing, as if I have developed a memory problem....or, since it used to be fine, the sim has...); it was a bomber escort, and the drop did occur....after a plane explosion that occurred in front of my plane. But again...it didn't seem to last...and after that, I went back and flew my QMB mission for the 3rd time, following which my Main Menu and application buttons were working quickly again.

Like I said...not extensive, not lab perfect....but enough to tell me that this java thing made some difference, and even more strongly pointing to something that has changed in the sim that triggers this. Unlike your experience, though, I still find my frame rates wildly fluctuating, even in level flight with no activity....like my QMB mission above, in cockpit, opens at around 80 fps, to 70, to mid-70's, to 50's, to 60's-70's, to low 40's as I start to dive ( this is all just looking straight ahead...obviously, moving view around will change it ). Like the sim can't make up it's mind what it wants to render.

So....result...:
1. Flew my QMB B17 escort....no frame drop, TIR enabled/disabled, after bomb run.
2. Flew same mission - watched bombs explode while flying low level - got the effect after, but seemed not to last, i'e', temporary.
3. Flew a Leningrad campaign Hurricane bomber escort mission ; during combat sequence, plane explodes within my view, followed shortly after by the effect. Again, though, it seemed to slowly come back by itself.
4. Flew my QMB mission again ; did not watch bombs explode ; made a couple strafing passes after the bomb run; effect did not appear to occur at all.

Interesting....definitely onto something there, thanks again Sparx!! ( Note: Yes, I will try it with renaming those 2 files, just to see... ).

[ August 12, 2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Nealg ]

nealg
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:00 am
Location: Caifornia

Re: Frame Rates Dropping in game

Post by nealg » Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:09 pm

And a little further: I renamed those files, and got some nasty occurrences. It played, but frames did some nasty tricks, and the drop was there. Named them back, would recommend doing so...I think they are needed for some reason.

Anyway, further playing/testing, the drop still occurs....but, there do seem to be differences, and I can seem to eventually correct it without exiting the mission now. That is new.

But mine is only one system, so this should all be taken with a grain ( or 2 ) of salt. For instance:

I flew a P47 BOE campaign mission, a ground strike, loadout of bombs and rockets. I had to drop my bombs early due enemy intercept. Rest of flight made target, I got the bad guys....but I noticed on return flight that, climbing to 3000 meters, I was getting a fairly steady 66 fps. Curious, I disabled TIR - frames jumped to 88. Re-enabled, back to 66.

So, I disabled TIR and used manual view to look straight up, where frames hit @ 115. Centered view and re-enabled TIR...frames stayed @ 88, no drop. Almost as if a buffer got cleared when I used manual pan view to get a higher reading. Note that this did not work before I put in the files that SparX suggested.

But it does still do it, at least for me.

If it helps anyone else who may want to check, for comparisons' sake, I currently use the following:

Nvidia 61.76 drivers ( original problem started with a GF 4 Ti4600 and 45.23 drivers).
FSAA @ 2XQ, AF @ 2X ( AF is recent - was at Off).
TIR ver 3.10 software ( w/'homegrown' profile ).
Desktop @ 1280x1024x32 @ 72 Hz refresh.
FB @ 1024x768x32, OpneGl, Vsync Off.
( I have tried it with desktop and sim at same res....no difference ).
FB Setup=Nvidia 3/4/FX, Custom, Trilinear, S3TC = On, Clip Hint Enabled.
Menu Vid Settings @ Excellent.

My system is as in my sig.

@ Edbert...we aren't ignoring you...it's just that this problem is getting all our concentration. I don't know the answer to your question...2% to 4% seems a bit high to me, but it may be absolutely correct. IL2/FB will use all the CPU it can, up to 100% of what is available. So, getting more raw CPU power should definitely improve your experience.

[ August 12, 2004, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Nealg ]

edbert
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:00 am

Re: Frame Rates Dropping in game

Post by edbert » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:18 am

quote:Originally posted by Nealg:
@ Edbert...we aren't ignoring you...it's just that this problem is getting all our concentration. I don't know the answer to your question...2% to 4% seems a bit high to me, but it may be absolutely correct. IL2/FB will use all the CPU it can, up to 100% of what is available. So, getting more raw CPU power should definitely improve your experience.Well, I'll be ordering that FX53 in another week or so, then it wont matter as much as it does with the 2100+

nealg
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:00 am
Location: Caifornia

Re: Frame Rates Dropping in game

Post by nealg » Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:08 am

@ edbert; Cool!! Enjoy, sir!!

On the issue at hand.....ok, further play has revealed a few more frame issues with the Check-six java .dll update and the sim, at least for me....also, it seemed to increase the frequency of the TIR-related 'frame drop'. Today, I went back to the original bin and lib files ( and deleted the extra msvcrt.dll that the Check-six file put in ) ; I did notice in the original lib folder there is a updated rt.jar file I show as dated 4.23.2004, indicating it was probable with the last patch or with AEP.

I also got reminded - I had installed the 'patchsavetrack' java fix for slow saving of tracks...that was in my lib folder, but of course wasn't in the Check-six one. Whether or not this affected anything, I cannot say for sure.

Anyway, putting the original java folders back in place, my FB frames are higher again on the high end, and higher on the low end ( in Black Death.ntrk and a USA P47 SP mission ); I tested without TIR on, using manual pan view only, in both cases. There does seem to be, though, a return to a larger fluctuation....the proverbial 'trade-off'.

Upshot....for me, anyway, the Check-six java DLL pack does not help, and in some areas, actually worsens the effect ( I noticed this last night over several hours of SP gameplay ). Be interested to know if it had any better effect for others, as vid cards and drivers might influence it a lot. Good suggestion, SparX, it was worth a try for sure....thanks again. Sorry I couldn't report more successful results.

Wayne....anything yet on your end?

Wayne
Posts: 891
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:00 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Frame Rates Dropping in game

Post by Wayne » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:49 pm

Nealg,

Thats very interesting.
I have a couple of checks that I would like you to make for me.

Right click on your bottom taskbar and bring up your Windows Task Manager and navigate to Processes. Scroll down the list until you find NaturalPoint and right click so that you get the window to allow you to change the thread priority.

It should be set to Realtime. I would like you to set this to high and retry IL2, and see if this improves the issue. If the issue is still there then bring it down to Above Normal and try again, and so on.

Please let me know the results of this. When you run IL2 do you have anti aliasing checked, what happens if this is unchecked?

nealg
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:00 am
Location: Caifornia

Re: Frame Rates Dropping in game

Post by nealg » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:50 am

Wayne....I will try that soon as I can. Any of the others reporting this problem should try too, in case we get differing results...note: I did try the old 'Affinity' workaround from earlier 3.xx versions, but it had no improvement.

Anti-Aliasing: yes, I use 2XQ. I have since before FB and before using TIR. I have tested without it since getting this 5700, and surprisingly, notice no difference in frame rate game play, just worse IQ. However, I can't stand to play without it on very long.

I do recall doing some testing with FB's Perfect mode a couple months ago and turning FSAA off, and seeing the TIR frame drop.

For any reading this who have had the same thing but haven't posted, I started about a year ago with a TIR 1 and it ran fine for months with FB. I then updated the software and began seeing this effect....tried to revert back, still had it...but there were several other things that changed during that time, including FB updates. Wayne worked his tail off trying to help me, so when I discovered that there were others seeing this, I started checking again.

I will give this Priority issue a try. If any of the others who reported in this thread could try, also, it would help. Thanks.

nealg
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:00 am
Location: Caifornia

Re: Frame Rates Dropping in game

Post by nealg » Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:26 am

Hmmmmm.... Ok, I tried it at the next level - High Priority - and have some interesting ( at least to me ) results. I flew my above mentioned QMB mission 3 times - the drop did not occur at all ( and I tried to get it to do so ). I then switched to a Normandy campaign I ahve running and flew one mission - P47's on a train hunt with bombs and rockets. Ok...after the attack was complete, I did get the effect occur...however....at the most, the difference between enabled/disabled TIR was about 6 fps. A definite huge improvement over 10 to 20.

Curious, I reflew my QMB mission again....and all was still well. So.....giving the TIR priority in FB seemed to definitely improve the situation....I hesitate to say 'fixed', since I haven't seen any results from others with the problem. And....being online, which is where they seem to have noticed it, might change the result. All I have been doing is offline.

Also, I noticed no related instability in the sim or my system from running the TIR in this process-mode. Although, 4 missions - and not the most intense of missions - does not constitute major testing. But, I am encouraged - Wayne, thank you for that suggestion! I feel I have made a step forward...I only wish I knew if it worked for the other guys.

I will continue to use this mode for TIR when I fly FB, and if anything changes - for better or for worse -, I will post it here.

Wayne
Posts: 891
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:00 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Frame Rates Dropping in game

Post by Wayne » Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:51 pm

Thanks Nealg,

I have done some testing over the last few days, both in realtime and in virtual machine and I am pretty sure that I understand what may be happening.

Please continue to test with the thread priority set to this level. It was the java testing that you guys were looking at that led me in this direction ....Thanks!

Any other users who are having the same problem can you please do the same, and then please let me know what you find.

Thank you again Nealg

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