forums.naturalpoint.com

Siggi,

FWIW, I've had every version of the tIR software on my machine since v1.31. I just checked my registry and the contents are as follows:

One NaturalPoint subfolder with its own two subfolders: NPClient Location and V2.01 GX.

No sign at all of any other previous versions, and I've never used any method of removing the previous version other than running the newer version's install routine, which tells me basically to unplug the tIR unit and run the program to remove the old driver, reboot and then run the install program again. Never a problem.

Next time you might begin with the approach of "Hey, anybody else having this problem?..." instead of going for your steel-toed boots. I've found that most people here, and esp. Halstead and Jim, go out of their way to lend assistance, even while reaching for their case-hardened cups. Writing a piece of software that works every time on every combination of machine and OS is not anywhere near a known science, it's more like a black art. So give 'em a break. You should know after watching the development of IL-2 for the past year and a half that the wait is usually more than worth it, even if you don't always agree with the direction of it. I'd much rather be playing FB than IL-2 v1.0. And, personally, I like being part of the development of something new, and I paid full price for mine just like you did. If you can't handle that, don't buy the product till you determine that it meets all of your expectations, with guarantees that it has reached the zenith of it's development.

just my $.02

Gary

Nah, I did all that nicea-nice BS when I was young and companies just think "here's another mug, give him the soft-soap routine and sap him off."

In my older years I've found it's a liability to go in all polite. For example, go into any high-street store and request a refund for a shonky product with a reasonable and polite demeanour, they'll screw you out the door. And you can't shift gears and turn up the heat after trying it sweet because they've already committed themselves.
But if you go in with a crazed look in your eye and talk like you mean business they fold immediately every time. Ever heard of "The squeaky wheel gets the grease"? Aphorisms like that exist for a reason, and it's not because somebody thought they were fun to make up with no concrete reason.

Does it make me popular? No. Do I care? No. Caring about people who are trying to take my money for a product is futile and self-defeating. They don't care about me, they care about my money. And it would be absurd to think otherwise. Hard-headedness works both ways in my book and I'm not here to make the people who've taken my money for a product feel all cosy about themselves. This is business, not a bible-meeting, and if I've been given cause to get p****d off about the product I'll report it loud and clear. Here's another valid aphorism..."The customer is always right."

I happen to like Halstead because he's much like Oleg, he puts himself about for the money and doesn't take the p*ss. But he'll remember my posts, even if he thinks I'm a jerk, and stuff'll get done if he cares about others and their money who get as p****d off as I do but don't have the front to say it like it is. In a way I'm providing a service, one of those little wake-up calls that say "Don't get complacent."

I should get a bloody medal.

Siggi-
We have heard about a few (very few from what we can tell) users that are having this problem. We are working hard to get to the bottom of it.

Here are a couple of things that might make the next software revision work better for you:

1) If you find a bug in beta software, please report it to us. We call it a public beta because we want folks to test it and send us any issues that they have. As much as our small but dedicated development team appreciates hearing about new bugs for them to squash, they probably would be even happier if you had mentioned them to us the testing phase.

2) That part of your post where you offer to 'kick us in the nuts' was certainly kind, but detailed system specs would be of more use to those trying to write better software for you.

You'll have to excuse my manner HD, I don't believe in being 'nice' just to spare somebody some discomfort when they deserve it just because it's 'The Civilised' thing to do. Clearly there are multiple issues with this software, and un-deleted registry keys are a classic cause of problems with many other items of commercial code. TIR should be ahead of the game and spend the money neccessary to have the uninstall routine get rid of ALL traces of the software. How hard can it be? My joystick cost �30 and doesn't give me an iota of grief. TIR cost �103 and I had to manually delete the reg-keys before I could get the ****** to work. Not acceptable.

So the TIR dudes can take my rant on the chin coz it's deserved.

Thanks for the offer of the profile, but I'm fine now. TIR is currently working 100% and I'm happy with it. Thanks to me.

Here's the deal Halstead...

a) Don't assume everyone has access to the internet and can read your forums or DL patches etc. This "release now, patch later via the net" is a disease that rightfully enrages people. If you were back in the days of no net you would have to test your software and ensure it was 100% functional, or you'd be out of business in a month.

b) Address the basics, one of which is make sure "Uninstall" does what it says on the tin. Most people know jack about PC's or the operating system and assume "Registry" means sending a pointless card to somebody at EA. But they often know enough to "Uninstall & reinstall". Give them a chance, eh?

As for 'beta-testing'...I was content to stick with v2.0 if it had worked. It didn't, which was why I was FORCED to try v2.1b, or wait again for the next 'final' version. Suprisingly I paid �103 so I could use TIR, not park it on a shelf waiting for software that works.

You're not a charity, you're in for the money. You've justified your high prices by explaining you cater to a niche market, and that's fair enough and will get you a measure of fan-boy adulation. But when you miss the basics, as you have with your uninstall issue (which I trust you will address), you deserve a kick in the pants. Nuff said.

quote:Originally posted by Halstead York:

2) That part of your post where you offer to 'kick us in the nuts' was certainly kind, but detailed system specs would be of more use to those trying to write better software for you.Nicely done.

Siggi, you are totally rude. Why not try to help this niche IR utility and their developer to further their product rather than !@#$ing all over them?

Sure, your expense of over $100 entitles you to having a proper uninstall routine, but it doesn't buy you the right to condescend others and flaunt your *whoo hooo* registry editing capabilities. *gasp*

siggi,

I probably shouldn't stick my nose in here, especially with what is going on in the world, but some of my old personality is showing.
Also, there is truth in what Siggi says.
So, here goes.

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Siggi wrote:

In my older years I've found it's a liability to go in all polite. For example, go into any high-street store and request a refund for a shonky product with a reasonable and polite demeanour, they'll screw you out the door. And you can't shift gears and turn up the heat after trying it sweet because they've already committed themselves.
But if you go in with a crazed look in your eye and talk like you mean business they fold immediately every time. Ever heard of "The squeaky wheel gets the grease"? Aphorisms like that exist for a reason, and it's not because somebody thought they were fun to make up with no concrete reason.
--------------------------------------------------------

Yes, the world in many ways and many places has changed. Unfortunately over the past 15 to 20 years, in my part of the world, there has been a shift in thinking. The politically correct and liberal mentality is the very thinking that allows the method you use to work in many cases. I have experimented with and observed this behaviour over many years. It generally only works in the short term and in places where people are passive, liberal or believe in political correctness. In the area I grew up in, we had a word for individuals that used agressive behaviour to dominate and intimidate others. The word was "Dead". These individuals would literally be found with a bullet in the head or at best would find themselves in a creek or ditch with numerous broken bones. Consequently, most would get the hint and move on. Some would say how primitive, but it purged my part of the world of undesireables and everybody was polite, hard working and didn't put up with crime. So, be glad you live in these times and in a world that has become tolerant (or soft in my belief) of unhealthy behaviour.

This will probably stop the thread but I just had to stick my nose in it.
I too have a reputation for being "blunt", but have been working on finding a healthy balance.

Remember, the squeaky wheel eventually goes in the trash.

Good Day All
sanature

Sanature,

Please tell me where your part of the world is so I can be sure to be on my very best behaviour should I find myself there!

Will it help if I mention your name?

Gary

That's an ironic observation sanature because most of the crooks I deal with around my neck of the woods are the very people who end up on the wrong end of a baseball bat (or in a "creek" with "broken bones").

Hard working and decent people are the very ones who are preyed upon by big business, and when they attempt to play the legal ball the big businesses field their batteries of sharp lawyers and screw them. The law is for those with the funds to manipulate it in their favour.
So what's a prol to do? Resort to natural justice is what. Natural justice is where a moral person refuses to be a victim and is prepared to resort to personal means to secure that justice. Clearly you think that putting somebody in a creek with broken bones is legitimate by your community's lights, but where we appear to differ is that you'd put the customer in the creek whilst I'd put the salesman there.

It's not about liberalism or political correctness; it's about right and wrong. Sounds like your kind of community is somewhere like Tulia in Texas? Where I come from that pig would already be in a creek.

[ March 26, 2003, 05:19 AM: Message edited by: Siggi ]

First, I want to thank and apologize to the NaturalPoint guys for taking up time on their forum. I will hopefully tie in a relevant comment at the end of this reply so as not to make it too off topic. I feel it is/was quite generous of them to allow my comments to be posted.

Second, To Phalcon51, 30 years ago and earlier, yes, our family name would have benefited you. No more though. We have been scattered due to economics and change. Rural America has pretty much been destroyed by Corporate America. The streets, neighborhoods, towns, and creeks that are named after our families are all that remain. Few now days even know the history. A few of the smaller pieces of land were donated to the Military for training bases and the rest has been sold overtime due to cheap overseas beef (while they destroy their land). The gas wells still bring in money but that is about it.

Siggi,

I wish we were not so far away so that we could get together for a beer and talk politics and social order. You obviously see much that many do not. Although I personally think you may be missing some balance, but I completely understand your comments.
Just to clarify my history. In short, the community that I grew up in was primarily family which was a mix of German and Spanish on my fathers side and English, Irish and Cherokee on my mothers side. We have a long history of military and law enforcement from the American revolution, Texas Independence, WW1, WW2 to Vietnam. My aunt was even a sheriff in the "Wild West". Apparently my aunt was really tough. I have the sawed off side by side shotgun she favored as a side arm. There are also numerous Texas Rangers and Marshalls in the family line. Anyway, we were generally known for our honesty and sense of duty to all. A strong dislike for big business and federal gov't control.
I have spent many years of my life fighting the corporate worlds lawyers despite my grandfathers close ties in politics and business with President Johnson. (Our family was not known for liking lawyers.)
Racism and prejudice was not accepted. Your value was based on a persons healthy principles. (My mother spoke cherokee before she spoke american english)
Locally, "natural justice" was more to our style in the sense that you take care of problems yourself and don't let anyone step on you or on others. Many rapists and others never lived to make it to trial.
I say all this to only try and clarify any misunderstandings someone may have after reading my previous post. (Or maybe I just muddied the water)

Siggi, have you read
"When Corporations Rule the World" second edition by David C. Korten? ISBN # 1-887208-04-6
How about "The Muqaddimah an Introduction to History" by Ibn Khaldun. ISBN # 0-691-01754-9.

Both are must reads for all and strongly apply to current situations.
The Muqaddimah was written in 1377 by an Arabic historian. Gives a wonderful perspective on human nature and society. The man was incredibly insightful.
If you are interested in either one and can't locate copies where you are, let me know, I would be more than glad to send you copies if you really are interested in reading them.

Anyway, back to my original thoughts.
I have found that not all businesses and thus people need to be aggressively attacked in order to accomplish ones goals. Also, not all people are driven by monetary rewards and there are a few that truly are concerned with doing what is "right" with business dealings. This is becoming rare in our ever growing materialistic societies but I still find it in places. Generally the larger the company, the more aggresive approach needed.
My experiance with NaturalPoint has been very positive and maybe I am wrong, but I feel that they are not solely motivated by monetary rewards. Although they do want to see their busines survive and grow, my gut feeling is that they also have a personal drive of doing what is "right" and truly are concerned about their customers not just in a monetary way. Like I said, maybe I am wrong but that is my guess.
So, the real challenge is figuring out who is trying to screw you and who is truly trying to do right. My feeling is that NaturalPoint (at least those I have had contact with) truly care about what is right and are not trying to screw anybody.

I would love to go on with discussions on social order but I will not take up anymore of this forums time.

Siggi or anybody else. If you would like more info on the above books or would like to discuss anything else, let me know and I will post my e-mail address so I will not take up this forums time.

Thanks and
Good Day
sanature


P.S. I want to thank all that have commented on this post and any others. Despite any disagreements or differences, everyone here is communicating. That says more for all here than people realize. Communication is the key to life and necessary for a more "peaceful" world. (Although one always needs the physical strength to back it up. But I will not go into that)

[ March 26, 2003, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: sanature ]