I got my unit today and have been playing around with it in Il2.
After initial disappointment I've managed to get it to a point where it's almost viable. I have the unit settings on default but have boosted the Il2 mouse speed to 2.0 and have the dot on a hat brim. I can now get full throw without losing the dot from the unit's FOV.
The problem is that these settings are fast and make the on-screen image very jittery. Where this really becomes critical is lining up a shot on a close target from behind, with or without deflection. Involuntary head movements (the grosser of which I'm sure I'll train myself out of) change the solution drastically and make accurate gunnery a hit and miss affair (har har).
The only solution to this that I can see is having a dead-zone that is plotted around the gunsight. I'm not an expert on this stuff but I think such a feature would have to be coded into the game itself. Is this planned for FB?
Another severe limitation is the unit's FOV. It's too easy to lose the dot with excessive head movements at lower unit speeds. If the FOV was bigger I could slow the unit and compensate with bigger head movements.
I think TrackIR has massive potential IF developers are prepared to hard-code it into their games. For air combat sims I believe a dead-zone is critical.
I'm going to continue with it as it is for a decent while and see if practice alone yields any significant improvement.
First impressions.
Re: First impressions.
Hi Siggi just hold tight things are happening within Track IR that are going to come to light soon and will help you with your problem.
You can see what I mean from this preview screen shots from the version 2 beta that is in testing now, and you will see it has a dead zone that can be set up, this will help you in IL2, also TIR will take a bit to get used too you wouldnt belive how much you move your head around while playing games and that unwanted movment is what you will have to train yourself to lose, it will come in time and only gets better from here.
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/hardware/pr ... reenshots/
What other sims are you planning on playing with it in as I can maybe help you out with other settings, also a good suggestion (and I use) is to set your dots up like this as the TIR unit will track a dot configuration like this better.
You can see what I mean from this preview screen shots from the version 2 beta that is in testing now, and you will see it has a dead zone that can be set up, this will help you in IL2, also TIR will take a bit to get used too you wouldnt belive how much you move your head around while playing games and that unwanted movment is what you will have to train yourself to lose, it will come in time and only gets better from here.
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/hardware/pr ... reenshots/
What other sims are you planning on playing with it in as I can maybe help you out with other settings, also a good suggestion (and I use) is to set your dots up like this as the TIR unit will track a dot configuration like this better.
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Charlie251
- Posts: 955
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:00 am
- Location: Melbourne, Florida
Re: First impressions.
Do not dispair! Things are in the work! Here are a few things to try to get you happy prior to the new software coming out.
Set your mouse speed higher in game, lower smoothing, and lower your slider bars for X&Y. I use 2.0 for the mouse and 15-15 for X-Y. Smoothing is at 75.
Map the pause TIR button to a joystick button. When your going in for a shot, pause TIR real fast. The precision mode feature in 2.0 will fix this.
Instead of turning your head, lean your body. Ive noticed that this helps alot but is very strange to get used to. If your losing FOV that much, then you need to up your slider bars, increase your dot size, and move back from the unit slightly.
Play with all the settings and you should find what works perfect. I am real good at holding still, so I have mine setup to fast movement. This way I can go from my 7 oclock view to my 5 oclock view (aft left to aft right) with barely a turn of the head.
All your problems will be solved with the 2.0 software, trust me! Oh, and FB should have built in support, at least by the first patch, so then you can use absolute positioning and that will definitlly solve everything.
Dont worry my friend... the fix is in the works!! Just play with 1.40 now and try to find soemthing that works good for you prior to the release of 2.0.
Set your mouse speed higher in game, lower smoothing, and lower your slider bars for X&Y. I use 2.0 for the mouse and 15-15 for X-Y. Smoothing is at 75.
Map the pause TIR button to a joystick button. When your going in for a shot, pause TIR real fast. The precision mode feature in 2.0 will fix this.
Instead of turning your head, lean your body. Ive noticed that this helps alot but is very strange to get used to. If your losing FOV that much, then you need to up your slider bars, increase your dot size, and move back from the unit slightly.
Play with all the settings and you should find what works perfect. I am real good at holding still, so I have mine setup to fast movement. This way I can go from my 7 oclock view to my 5 oclock view (aft left to aft right) with barely a turn of the head.
All your problems will be solved with the 2.0 software, trust me! Oh, and FB should have built in support, at least by the first patch, so then you can use absolute positioning and that will definitlly solve everything.
Dont worry my friend... the fix is in the works!! Just play with 1.40 now and try to find soemthing that works good for you prior to the release of 2.0.
Re: First impressions.
Thanks for the help guys, it's much appreciated.
The most impressive aspect of the TIR gig so far is the way the head honcho pounced when he caught the first whiff of a new market for his kit. The interaction with Maddox and the FS community and the speed at which the software has been evolved is quite something. My hat is off to them.
The problem with this adaptation (apart from the ones mentioned above) is that the unit seems to have missed the mark by centimeters in all it's critical areas. If only the FOV was just a wee bit bigger...if only the unit could be placed another foot further away without suffering performance degradation. Basically it seems to be hovering on the edge of viability, and only careful tweaking sees it hanging on by it's fingernails (I apologise for the continuing metaphor atrocity, it was a late night with much consumption of heinous fluids). It's actually a case of the trade-offs being very much non-complimentary...if the unit is moved real close for full throw of in-cockpit head movement it's too easy to lose the dot from the FOV. If the unit is moved too far away in-cockpit head movement becomes minimal. The various sliders in the control panel represent an uneasy interface between FOV and unit distance and produce jittery head movement which especially denigrates shooting solutions.
So...I'm pinning my hopes on the next software version, and intergration with FB. I certainly do not yet regret buying the unit...my curiosity had to be satisfied and I believe there is a good chance the thing will be relatively perfected (such that I'll actually enjoy using it instead of finding it a chore).
Last comment...having seen the unit I consider it a wee bit expensive. I was very suprised by it's size as all images of it suggested something considerably bigger (and if it had been the size I was thinking it was it's FOV would have been big enough for a cow's head). The quality of some of the components doesn't scream premium price...the stamped spring-metal legs are rough around the edges with traces of rust and look a bit shonky. I assume the dev costs of the software required for it's new role, plus all the boxing and whatnot, were significant when compared to the likely number of units sold by a small company.
Whatever, blah blah. Fact is a lot of guys have got it to work to a point where they are very happy with it and that's the bottom line. Kudos to the head honcho for having the balls and vision to see a potential and act on it so fast. I suspect that five years from now TrackIR will rank alongside a good graphics card for importance in the minds of many simmers.
Now bugger orf and get the new software sorted.
The most impressive aspect of the TIR gig so far is the way the head honcho pounced when he caught the first whiff of a new market for his kit. The interaction with Maddox and the FS community and the speed at which the software has been evolved is quite something. My hat is off to them.
The problem with this adaptation (apart from the ones mentioned above) is that the unit seems to have missed the mark by centimeters in all it's critical areas. If only the FOV was just a wee bit bigger...if only the unit could be placed another foot further away without suffering performance degradation. Basically it seems to be hovering on the edge of viability, and only careful tweaking sees it hanging on by it's fingernails (I apologise for the continuing metaphor atrocity, it was a late night with much consumption of heinous fluids). It's actually a case of the trade-offs being very much non-complimentary...if the unit is moved real close for full throw of in-cockpit head movement it's too easy to lose the dot from the FOV. If the unit is moved too far away in-cockpit head movement becomes minimal. The various sliders in the control panel represent an uneasy interface between FOV and unit distance and produce jittery head movement which especially denigrates shooting solutions.
So...I'm pinning my hopes on the next software version, and intergration with FB. I certainly do not yet regret buying the unit...my curiosity had to be satisfied and I believe there is a good chance the thing will be relatively perfected (such that I'll actually enjoy using it instead of finding it a chore).
Last comment...having seen the unit I consider it a wee bit expensive. I was very suprised by it's size as all images of it suggested something considerably bigger (and if it had been the size I was thinking it was it's FOV would have been big enough for a cow's head). The quality of some of the components doesn't scream premium price...the stamped spring-metal legs are rough around the edges with traces of rust and look a bit shonky. I assume the dev costs of the software required for it's new role, plus all the boxing and whatnot, were significant when compared to the likely number of units sold by a small company.
Whatever, blah blah. Fact is a lot of guys have got it to work to a point where they are very happy with it and that's the bottom line. Kudos to the head honcho for having the balls and vision to see a potential and act on it so fast. I suspect that five years from now TrackIR will rank alongside a good graphics card for importance in the minds of many simmers.
Now bugger orf and get the new software sorted.
Re: First impressions.
Siggi:
Appreciate all the feedback. Some good points in your post.
To beat a dead horse, I think that you will update your opinion of the software once 2.0 is out, and that should be a week or less from now. We have also received great feedback from developers and will have direct support "trackIR Enhanced" in tons of flight sims in the coming months.
On the unit cost, it is actually quite high as there is a CMOS imager in the unit, it really is a high speed 60Hz camera with image processing on board and full USB connectivity. This is more complex than a simple web cam. I wish the parts looked bigger or more shiny to help this come across.
Some people like the metal base and some don't. Don't know what serial # you have, but all units for the past thousand or so have had the stainless steel base press cut instead of laser cut, which leaves a nicer finish. The laser cutting can make it look like the edge was slightly burned, because it was, by the laser. Press cutting solved this probem. The bases are meant to do double duty, by also cliping onto laptops.
Thanks for pointing out how small the unit is in real life, we tend to forget that the pictures make it look big. We will work on that.
As for making the tracking better, we have quite a few solutions on the horizon. First, many users have adopted their own custom dots, which really help, the new software will let you define the dot size to track so it will be easier to setup and track your own custom dot. We will have NaturalPoint hats with built in reflective material in a few weeks and are also working on an active LED option, to be clipped onto a hat or headset.
As you pointed out, this is a new product and new category and we are a small company, but we move fast. Consider yourself at the leading edge!
[ February 08, 2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Jim Richardson ]
Appreciate all the feedback. Some good points in your post.
To beat a dead horse, I think that you will update your opinion of the software once 2.0 is out, and that should be a week or less from now. We have also received great feedback from developers and will have direct support "trackIR Enhanced" in tons of flight sims in the coming months.
On the unit cost, it is actually quite high as there is a CMOS imager in the unit, it really is a high speed 60Hz camera with image processing on board and full USB connectivity. This is more complex than a simple web cam. I wish the parts looked bigger or more shiny to help this come across.
Some people like the metal base and some don't. Don't know what serial # you have, but all units for the past thousand or so have had the stainless steel base press cut instead of laser cut, which leaves a nicer finish. The laser cutting can make it look like the edge was slightly burned, because it was, by the laser. Press cutting solved this probem. The bases are meant to do double duty, by also cliping onto laptops.
Thanks for pointing out how small the unit is in real life, we tend to forget that the pictures make it look big. We will work on that.
As for making the tracking better, we have quite a few solutions on the horizon. First, many users have adopted their own custom dots, which really help, the new software will let you define the dot size to track so it will be easier to setup and track your own custom dot. We will have NaturalPoint hats with built in reflective material in a few weeks and are also working on an active LED option, to be clipped onto a hat or headset.
As you pointed out, this is a new product and new category and we are a small company, but we move fast. Consider yourself at the leading edge!
[ February 08, 2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Jim Richardson ]
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Charlie251
- Posts: 955
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:00 am
- Location: Melbourne, Florida
Re: First impressions.
Siggi. I think Jim is right; when 2.0 hits the net, you'll think much higher of the unit.
If your losing FOV that bad, something is wrong. I normally sit with my dot about a 6 inches to a foot from the unit. But sometimes I slack way back in my chair when on auto pilot and still have very good results (being about 2.5 or so feet away). I have no complaints at all about the FOV.
Yes, this device does require a little tweaking. But thats the fun part. I overclock computers, tweak vid cards, Bios, ect. Tweaking this was just naturally part of the fun. It worked great out of the box... worked even better once I played. Now I am working on hardware tweaks.... like an active LED (Id have it done I am just to lazy to finish it off ). It works so well with just the dot, I really dont see a need for an active LED right now.
I will say that when I first got my TrackIR unit, I started to wonder if I really needed it. It was hard to control and I missed my quick and precise POV hat views. But after a few weeks... man, I will NEVER fly without this thing!
Give it some time, wait for the 2.0 software, and practice with it. I guarantee you will love it afterwards!!!
If your losing FOV that bad, something is wrong. I normally sit with my dot about a 6 inches to a foot from the unit. But sometimes I slack way back in my chair when on auto pilot and still have very good results (being about 2.5 or so feet away). I have no complaints at all about the FOV.
Yes, this device does require a little tweaking. But thats the fun part. I overclock computers, tweak vid cards, Bios, ect. Tweaking this was just naturally part of the fun. It worked great out of the box... worked even better once I played. Now I am working on hardware tweaks.... like an active LED (Id have it done I am just to lazy to finish it off ). It works so well with just the dot, I really dont see a need for an active LED right now.
I will say that when I first got my TrackIR unit, I started to wonder if I really needed it. It was hard to control and I missed my quick and precise POV hat views. But after a few weeks... man, I will NEVER fly without this thing!
Give it some time, wait for the 2.0 software, and practice with it. I guarantee you will love it afterwards!!!
Re: First impressions.
Well, I've been reading these forums, have acted on some of the tips and am now reasonably happy with the performance, although the fact that new software is coming is a consideration.
I have mounted a multiple-dot panel on the brim of a cap which has enabled me to push my monitor (and hence the TIR) right to the back of the cockpit desk. I'm 6'5" tall and have long arms...the distance between dots and unit is about one and a half arm lengths for me. The mouse-scaling in Il2 is set at 1.8, XY axi are set at 11 x 2 and smoother at 75. Movement on-screen is now acceptably smooth and I get full in-cockpit throw without bouncing too hard off the limits of movement. However, even though I've been able to shoot down P-39's on average settings without padlock I still prefer to use padlock close-in. I'm sure I could do away with padlock with a couple of weeks practice though.
Losing center is still a bit of a problem but I'm becoming quite adept at hammering the Center-View switch on my stick with my little finger (I have a Cougar).
Basically I was thinking I'd have full authority of views in-game, including stable gunnery solutions. The reality is that I still find the performance too jittery and prefer padlock at the end of the chase.
Having adjusted to that compromise I'm now aware that TIR has given me the ability to do everything I used to do with snap-views and my trackball...that alone is worth every penny of the �103 my unit cost me. If the new software also allows me to do away with padlock I shall consider it a bonus.
Jim, I hear you on the CMOS thing. I had kind of equated the unit with a web-cam and your explanation clears up the price issue.
Anyway, the TIR has passed the 'Shelf Test'...I will continue to use it instead of consigning it to The Dusty Shelf. It took a bit of work but it was worth it. With v2.0 it can only get better.
Cheers guys.
[ February 09, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Siggi ]
I have mounted a multiple-dot panel on the brim of a cap which has enabled me to push my monitor (and hence the TIR) right to the back of the cockpit desk. I'm 6'5" tall and have long arms...the distance between dots and unit is about one and a half arm lengths for me. The mouse-scaling in Il2 is set at 1.8, XY axi are set at 11 x 2 and smoother at 75. Movement on-screen is now acceptably smooth and I get full in-cockpit throw without bouncing too hard off the limits of movement. However, even though I've been able to shoot down P-39's on average settings without padlock I still prefer to use padlock close-in. I'm sure I could do away with padlock with a couple of weeks practice though.
Losing center is still a bit of a problem but I'm becoming quite adept at hammering the Center-View switch on my stick with my little finger (I have a Cougar).
Basically I was thinking I'd have full authority of views in-game, including stable gunnery solutions. The reality is that I still find the performance too jittery and prefer padlock at the end of the chase.
Having adjusted to that compromise I'm now aware that TIR has given me the ability to do everything I used to do with snap-views and my trackball...that alone is worth every penny of the �103 my unit cost me. If the new software also allows me to do away with padlock I shall consider it a bonus.
Jim, I hear you on the CMOS thing. I had kind of equated the unit with a web-cam and your explanation clears up the price issue.
Anyway, the TIR has passed the 'Shelf Test'...I will continue to use it instead of consigning it to The Dusty Shelf. It took a bit of work but it was worth it. With v2.0 it can only get better.
Cheers guys.
[ February 09, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Siggi ]
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Charlie251
- Posts: 955
- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:00 am
- Location: Melbourne, Florida
Re: First impressions.
The first time you toggle precision mode on as you close in on a bad guy, you will unmap padlock from your joystick forever and never use it again.
Re: First impressions.
quote:Originally posted by Charlie251:
The first time you toggle precision mode on as you close in on a bad guy, you will unmap padlock from your joystick forever and never use it again. I take it this is a feature of v2.0 that adjusts the scaling on the fly? Har..."on the fly".
Sounds good!
The first time you toggle precision mode on as you close in on a bad guy, you will unmap padlock from your joystick forever and never use it again. I take it this is a feature of v2.0 that adjusts the scaling on the fly? Har..."on the fly".
Sounds good!
Re: First impressions.
"The first time you toggle precision mode on as you close in on a bad guy, you will unmap padlock from your joystick forever and never use it again"
Ok, that is it - I need this now
Ok, that is it - I need this now