game mocap and software questions

[john2004]

Hi, this thing looks VERY good from a first impression. I'm interested in doing full figure motion capture for use in game development.

I wonder what you have done with it as a tracker? Where is an example of using it to track a full figure and exporting a BVH file?

The camera resolution seems too small to give good resolution on a full figure 10 feet away. Isn't it only 390 pixels wide? What kind of error would that create, irrespective of motion or tracking error. Seems to be an ultimate limit on precision.

How many cameras do I need? In theory 2 should work, but all the big studios have 8 or more around the room to catch hidden motions.

The SDK (have not compiled anything yet) seems valuable but there no example of a finished product to show what can be done. Is one going to be available? I'd expect to see a real tracker that can export useful BVH files. Other wise, how do you know anyone else can create such a thing? I know you are not selling finished software, but you have to have something in hand that you have cooked up yourself, right?

The reason you need a working software example is that I have to know what can be done before I can spend my money and "hope" I can make it do the job.

Does the SDK have the resources now to build a full motion capture application? Or is it only a foundation to bring in the data and we are on our own from that point on?

But, that said, this thing looks like a possible motion traker that I can afford. Did not expect to ever see that.
All your products look good.
Thanks,
John

[Jim]

John:

Thanks for taking the time to post your OptiTrack questions.

OptiTrack is a brand new product line for us and we are in the process of understanding exactly what our customers need from us regarding a complete solution.

The Flex board is for simple motion capture, or tracking "dots" and doing stuff with that information. It is also intended for near field applications, where the user is no more than 12 feet from the camera. The SDK is quite complete, but as you mention, it only gives you the dot positions, or 6DOF using the Vector Clip. We hope to see what applications our users come up with and how they intend to use the camera, as you mention, nothing like this, from a price point, has ever been available.

You can array multiple cameras, up to about 8 seem to work great on 2 USB hubs. You can then create a larger capture area. We are not sure what the final resolution will be, as we are still investigating full body motion capture. The cameras are quite accurate, despite the small resolution because of the high frame rate and the sub pixel processing. We believe that sub millimeter is attainable for less than 3 feet and in the 2-3 mm range for 10 feet from the camera.

We are going to be working towards offering a complete line of "desktop" motion capture devices. We hope to coin the term Desktop MoCap! We need direct feedback from potential users like you to know exactly what to make. Our ideas are as follows:

- Single camera system mounted on a headset that tracks facial markers relative to the head position, for simple face animation. We need the plug in for the popular 3D programs, but that doesn't seem to bad. Similar systems are going for around $10K or more, we hope for a LOT less than that!
- Multi Camera system to track a desktop motion capture area, about 2 feet cubed, and all points in 3D, rather than simple 2D.
- Multi Camera system for larger area motion capture, like full body. We have some interest in this from quite a few people and will be making some sort of complete solution for this. We want to have everything at one stop, markers, tripods, the works. This will allow many people to experience mocap who could never afford it before.

So, that is the complete outlook. I wanted to give you this level of detail as others may read this post as well and want to help define the products that we offer. We are greatly interested in working with people who are already in the Animation or Effects worlds and can let us know what tools they need. Feel free to post below and I will offer more feedback.

[ April 06, 2005, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: NaturalPoint - Jim ]

[john2004]

Jim, Thank you for the reply and details.
I'm in 3D animation and need a full body system for $1000. I'm not sure that is possible. I see the big systems touting 8 to 12 cameras, 1200 pixel resolution and 120 fps capture. The hardware to do that would run many thousands of dollars if I bought it myself. So the idea of using two cameras set 15 feet away may not work. But for a cheap system, it would have to work. Maybe not high precision, but good enough to quickly rough out game animation or short actions I could drop into my 3D app. And I need BVH files, not a custom plugin since I don't use one of the big expensive animation programs that would get the plugin. So for a small studio, we need the low cost and probably can use less precision in the capture. I can adjust it by hand if I need to hit a particular mark in my program. Relative movement would be better if it was precision. I guess someone has to put one together and demo the results. The desktop mocap just does not seem that valuable to me, it's the big motions that interact with the world and other characters that are most important to me. Moving my hands and capturing that output would not be of large value. Maybe it would to someone else. Thanks, John

[Jim]

Hello:

Great post, thanks for the feedback.

The desktop mocap system is intended mainly for facial animation, but it can also be used for hands.

We are planning on building a multi-camera full body system in the near future, but it probably won't be for about 6 months or so. If you want to have input in the product design cycle, which we would like, just give me a call at 541-753-6645 ext.11 and we can talk about what you need. That way you might luck out and be a Beta site for us!

[alxslr]

quote:Originally posted by NaturalPoint - Jim:


- Single camera system mounted on a headset that tracks facial markers relative to the head position, for simple face animation. We need the plug in for the popular 3D programs, but that doesn't seem to bad. Similar systems are going for around $10K or more, we hope for a LOT less than that! I want to make facial and head motion track. Do you think that this (camera mounted system) would be the best solution. If I decide to implement the software by myself, do you think your optitrack camera is light weigh enough to attach it to a helmet and put it in front of the actor? How do I track the head 6 degrees movement?

Thank you

[Jim]

Hello:

I think that it is a fairly easy task to mount a single camera on a headset and have it image the users face. The camera is farily light weight, so I don't think that would be an issue. The image would only be in 2D, as you would need 2 cameras to get 3D and that might be a bit much to hang out infront of a user on a headset.

If you also want the position of the users head you would have to use Vector and another camera for that, or two more cameras and mulitple markers.

We are working on the face tracking system, with only markers on the face, no cameras, we think it will take about 4 cameras to make it work well. We don't have a timeline at all for this product, but we are planning on developing it.

Hope this info helps.

[pbjgame]

I don't know how old this post is, but if your still there(you can tell I spend alot of time on old forums) I have some questions about similar stuff(so much for keeping stupidity to a minimum) I didn't see an answer to "does it export to .bvh" cuz thats my main concern, I am thinking of using it in 3d apps and games, truebones with truespace 5.2 or gamespace 1.6, Has anyone done this before, or is it not possible? I hope I can afford the full body mocap thing, do you have a price estimate, and would I have to setup some kind of metal free, or reflective materials free room to do mocap in? Peace, you rock!

[Jim]

Hello:

We don't have any export capabilities at this time, it is an SDK that you can develop your own projects with. We are working on a more advanced software suite that will allow for plugins for most popular software and export features. We will keep everyone posted as we make more progress on this front.

[bsteagal]

Jim:

After reading all the posts in several different areas of your forum, I'm getting more and more interested in your product.

I would be very interested in participating in the design cycle of your full body solution. I have looked at almost every mocap solution out there and nothing seems to come close to yours in price.

I've run the gamut of optical and mechanical systems from Vicon to Animazoo. What would I have to do to participate? (and yes, I would gladly do it for a chance at being a beta tester... muhahahaha)

[Jim]

Hello:

Thanks for the kind words. I will post on this forum, and PM you, when it is time for the Beta to begin. Again, please don't hold your breath, as I don't want to be liable for that! It may be a while.